o'donnell starts right now. crapshoot, let's play "hardball." i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, too big to fail? here are the two things to take away from mitch mcconnell's offer. one we are no longer looking at democrats versus republicans or liberals versus conservatives. this is a fight between the leaders and protesters, people who are responsible for america's financial health and those who never have to worry about an election. second, money talks, b.s. walks. when major financial groups told the gop that default was not an option, they suddenly saw the light. as phil graham once said -- -- we learned that many on the

right only pretend to care about the debt. what they care about is shrinking government and lowering taxes. tonight we're going to put a spot light on the unsupported republican claim that somewhat higher taxes for the better off means fewer jobs for everyone. also, the rupert murdoch scandal has claimed another victim. murdoch has dropped his bid to buy british sky broadcasting tonight. will it threaten his holdings here in the states? the latest poll on republicans may show that mitt romney is in more trouble than we think. he's ahead already, but michele bachmann is surging. the crowd up for grabs right now is backman-friendly. let my finish tonight with a person who may break the stranglehold that threatens to take down the u.s. economy. we start with the fight for a debt ceiling deal. steve king is a republican from iowa. let me ask you, congress marsh king, thank you for joining us. >> hi, chris. >> let's go over some of the highlights.

if enacted president obama would be able to ask for $2.5 trillion over the next year in three installments, always long as he offers spending cuts congress could vote against raising the debt limit. you're opposed to that why, sir? >> i am. it passes the congressional responsibility -- in fact, that's in article i, section 8, it passes responsibility over to the president and puts him in the position to veto the objections of congress about raising the debt ceiling. so it sets the scenario by which it requires a super majority to say no to a debt ceiling. right now it requires a simple majority to say no, and that is our constitutional obligation. we shouldn't pass it off to the president. i've said that puts the fox in the henhouse. >> joe walsh of illinois, a tea partier, went after the president today, calling him a liar. in a video message today, let's watch what he had to say. >> president obama quit lying.

you know darn well that if august 2nd comes and goes, there's plenty of money to pay off our debt and cover our -- all of our social security obligations. and you also know that you and only you have the discretion to make those payments. but have you no shame, sir? in three short years, you've bankrupted this country and destroyed job creation. you're either in over your head, you don't understand what makes this country great, or your hellbent in turning us into some european big government wasteland. >> european big government wasteland. what does that mean, exactly, that kind of a charge, sir? >> i think that's a bold statement on the part of joe, and it's all right for him to play a little hardball with the president. >> what are we talking about, european wasteland? by the way, do you agree with him that the government is not going to go into default in early august if ultimate don't pass a debt ceiling?

>> first, the wasteland, we can see it across the states like pennsylvania, ohio. michigan would be another. we haven't kept our investment. money is sitting on the sidelines. so where i stand on this, i think the president may well -- and he did yesterday, imply the threat that senior citizens mate not get their social security checks. eat your peas and we cannot guarantee the veteran or social security checks coming in. i think what we did day with michele bachmann ard others, we pay or military first, their families are living paycheck to paycheck and they become a political pawn. they should be guaranteed to be paid first for all time and we need to service our debt. that needs to be guaranteed. that conserves about 15.2% of our revenue stream before you touch the part that you're borrowing. so we can do this, and social security needs to be paid, as

does the military. >> so, wait a minute, let me get you straight. you don't believe we go into default. you believe geithner is lying, the president is lying, but you have some superior knowledge. what basis do you have for your judgment? where do you -- >> i do have superior knowledge. thanks for recognizing it. >> where have you gotten this from? >> i've watch it come out of the white house. i've listened to the administration, the executives part of this administration. many of them will say what the president wants them to say. you have to put that through a filter. that's not a mystery. it's not unique knowledge, but common knowledge. >> so the treasury secretary, everyone around the president, the business community that's now scared to death, tom donohue, head of the u.s. chamber, all those people are lying, and i and bachmann have 9 truth? >> here's what i'll tell you, if you look at the joint chiefs of

staff, who shifted their position, you can't convince me they actually changed their mind. their commander in chief changed their mind, just like he changes the mind of his cabinet. when you listen to the cabinet, read through the tea leaves and think about the process here. if the president is going to decide who he's going to pay with the current 58% of our expenditures in revenue stream, if he won't take the oath to pay the troops first, service our debt second, then he is using the threat of financial calamity to try to get the ceiling increased. >> do you believe the united states goes into default if the congress doesn't act in the next week or so? >> if they pass my bill, no. if the president honors the theme of my bill, no. >> so if we don't pass the debt ceiling, you don't worry about that? >> i think that we have plenty of money to service or debt, but the message that's going out is creating unstable markets today, because they're beginning to wonder if the president will or will not service the debt. it should not be his discretion.

congress should put the bill on his desk. >> you have just compared, sir, the decision over policy, don't ask/don't tell, with the president who's also commander in chief under our constitution, has made a policy judgment to get rid of it, and he's supported business his cabinet and joint chiefs. you're comparing that to an objective statement that we face default if we don't pass the debt ceiling. that's a screwy comparison. >> no, your listeners understand that. your listeners understand it and so do the people that i'm dealing with. they know. >> who are you dealing with? >> the american citizens, who will elect the next president of the united states np who elected the house of representatives, that's who. >> you're polls in your district to find out whether the united states goes into default or not at the end of this month. it's your district that's telling you this information? they know what's going to happen -- >> here's another thing. i know this is a revelation, but i have an independent judgment as well. >> tell me where it comes from. >> it comes from a long experience of dealing

politically and in business and raising a family and being an american citizen just like the independent judgment of my constituents. >> what does raising a family teach you about international financial? >> it requires me to use independence judgment. >> where does knowledge about international financial derive from raising a family? what's the connection? >> that's not my only source, is raising my children. there are many other sources of information. i gather it just like you. you seem to have an independent judgment to be my critic. i could challenge you the same way. >> do you trust the "wall street journal"? do you trust "new york times"? >> i read the "wall street journal" "wall street journal." i sometimes read "new york times." i don't trust the words of any source. you have to put it all together. >> do you trust the u.s. chamber of commerce or major corps who say we're in trouble if we don't pass the debt ceiling? do you trust any of these organizations? doing hours of meetings challenging the entities. >> all at once? >> individually. i have to put together my

independent prudential judgment. as do all americans. >> you have the authority to make this judgment. let me asking, cite one international experts that says we don't have a problem if we don't pass it, cite one that you have trust in one that you have trust in. >> i don't need to go to an international expert. we don't have an international law and don't have an international financial institution here it's just affected by international finances. >> give me one national expert. one u.s. citizen you trust on this issue who is an expert in u.s. finance. >> my job is to hold -- the bill that i introduced today is the bill that adds stability to our international markets. find one who will disagree with that. that's what i challenge you to do. if we guarantee to service or debt there will be more stability and every international expert will do that. >> thank you congressman, for coming on "hardball." associated presses reporting that moody's has put the u.s. debt on review. for a possible downgrade. that's a fact.

that just came out. joining me is jim mcdermott of washington. i don't know where you stand, congressman. are you with mr. king that we can push off on this national debt question through this month into august and let this ride? or do we have to act on it now? >> we absolutely have to act to it now, chris. i voted already for a clean raising of the debt limit several weeks ago, because i think says a real catastrophe for us to allow these people to play with the debt like it's dynamite. these are little kids playing with sticks of dynamite. >> you just heard that kind of conversation going on, with all respect to people left, right and center, you're in the minority now, sir, mr. mcdermott. you have the tea party-run republican party calling the shots and it looks like they're willing on the house side to let this thing go to catastrophe. they don't want to cut a deal. we have mcdonnell -- i do respect his brain.

he said no republican is going to vote for debt ceiling increase the other day. he actually said it today. aren't you worried the republican party is willing to bring down this economy? >> i am. senator mcconnell said at the beginning of this says, my goal is to prevent president obama from being reelected. and they are willing to sacrifice everything, it seems, including the american economy, to take back the white house. that seems to be the sole thing driving them. it's bad politics. i -- i am very worried. i went through a loss of debt -- a lot of bond rating in the state of washington. i know what happens to your costs. every percent that wall street charges more in interest will our downgrating will be a trillion dollars in debt. that's a terrible price to bay for this foolishness that's going on right now. what's wrong with the mcconnell plan in its crudest

form, and the long-term fight between left and right over the deficit? why can't we separate the two? i think that's what you want to do. you want you said a clean bill. isn't what mcconnell is offering, letting the had yous go in separate directions? >> he is to a certainly extent, but what he's really saying is i want three votes in the next year and a half before the election. we want to play out this thing over and over again, where the republicans will put a bill out, the president will veto it, then it will be brought back to the house and senate. we won't be able to override. it is simply trying to shift all the problem on to the president and refuse to take responsibility for their unwillingness to put the wars and the tax cuts and all of what's gone on in the last ten years on their watch. they want to put it all on the president. >> congressman, what would you do if you were president right now?

>> i would call the president -- >> not a congressman from seattle, but president of the united states. what would you do? >> i would call them in and say, look, you know where my home is, you know my phone number. i have put things on the table. you have gone out on the driveway and said we're walking away. i put something else on the table, you say that's not good enough. they always want more, so when you're ready to talk to me, you know my phone number, give me a call. >> what happens at the end of next week when we don't have a debt ceiling bill, when they don't wall back? >> well, then they are going to take responsibility. he has gone way farther than some of my colleagues want he to go in offering things to them as part of a $4 trillion cut. >> your narrative is fine with me, sir, but what happens at the end of the next week and you're president of the united states don't you have to guarantee the good trust and faith and credit of the united states and cut the

deal you have to cut. what do you do? what do you actually do with all this back and forth, tit for tat, and the fight is over and everybody is worried, what do you do? >> mitch mcconnell blinked today, and he will blink by the end of next week, and we will have somebody put on the table by the end of next week. the republican -- >> you might be right. >> the republican adults understand they cannot let this happen. they know that. it's going to be a terrible week. >> your speaker, and he is your speaker, you know what he said? it's a crapshoot, and i think you agree. that's the scary part of this, sir, but maybe there is a blink from the other side, but it's very risky. thank you, sir. >> thank you. >> you're always welcome here. coming up, what about this argument that lower taxes somehow mean more jobs? and even a slight increase in taxes for the better off means the end of jobs? has anybody ever questioned that simple, simple argument?

we're going to question it when we come back. robert reich, you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. >> announcer: this past year alone there's been a 67% spike in companies embracing the cloud-- big clouds, small ones, public, private, even hybrid. your data and apps must move easily and securely to reach many clouds, not just one. that's why the network that connects, protects, and lets your data move fearlessly through the clouds means more than ever. ugh, my feet are killin' me. well, we're here to get you custom orthotic inserts. dr. scholl's custom fit orthotic center recommends the custom-fit orthotic that's best for your tired feet.

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welcome back to "hardball." joining me is former labor secretary robert reich, author of "aftershock." robert, thank you so much for joining us, mr. secretary. >> hi, chris. >> we need expertise. we've just heard from a

generalist congressman from the midwest, who represents the thinking of common sense, but i want some higher level than that. here's moody's investor service, placing a triple-a bond rating on review for possible downgrade, giving the rising possibility of the statutory debt limit will not be raised. tell me what that means. >> well, it means that wall street and big business, chris, are putting increasing pressure on congress, on republicans and on democrats. after all, wall street and big business, that's where the money is, they are major contributors. they're putting increasing pressure to make sure there's absolutely no problem with raising the debt limit. obviously if there is a problem and moody's does downgrade that triple-a rating, that means interest rates go up, because all investors all over the world, to the united states and foreign lenders, all of them get more nervous as a condition for making the loans.

i don't think that is going to happen. the fact that they made this downgrade warning is basically says, do what mitch mcconned wants, whatever you have to do, but get this done. >> robert. the republican party, as you know, as well as i do, is not the party we grew up with. it's not the henry cabot lodge party. not the henry dirk sen party. they don't give a rat's butt about what we're dealing with. the lady from wasilla, says my common sense and raising my kids, they don't have to know anything, they operate from a horse sense they talk about. >> chris, the fact of the marine is republicans, particularly republican leadership, boehner and mcconnell know this, they don't want to be blamed for a financial calamity, and it would

be if the debt ceiling is not raised. this is where mcconnell's compromise is coming from. he's saying let's separate the issue of the debt ceiling from the issue of the budget. this is a major capitulation from common sense. >> let's go back to where they do win an argument, the republicans. >> it seems to me over and over again, i brought you on because i want you to talk about this. this is the republican talking point standpoint here's their religious argument. i want you to go through it as perhaps an agnostic on this one. let's listen. >> american people understand that tax hikes destroy jobs. the last thing that we should be doing right now at a time of 9.2% unemployment is enacting more government policies that will destroy jobs. >> rob, when i learned i have to pay more taxes out of my income, and i'm not complaining much, i have to say i've got to work harder. the republicans say you work less, because ear making less money.

i would argument common sense the less real money you're taking home is the harder you work. tell us where this comes from. if my taxes go from 39.6 down to 35, i'm not going to work less, i don't know who is. why do they keep saying that? >> into you it's part of almost an orthodoxy. it comes from supply-side economics founded really in 1980. it was a basic platform of the reagan administration. it is arthur laugher and all of the laffer curve. there's almost no empirical basis for the claim that raising taxes will reduce economic growth. in fact, most of the evidence we have historically is exactly the opposite. look what happened after george w. bush lowered taxes on the rich. did we get an explosion of growth? no. in fact, we had about 8 million jobs during the bush administration, which is half

what we typically get in a recovery. >> mr. secretary, let's look at the chart -- let's show that chart. i like to do graphs when you talk. here's the chart for the "the washington post." it shows there was 20% net job growth in this country in the '80s under reagan and in the '90s another 20% growth under clinton. and then you see zero growth. by the way, it seems like republicans think tax cuts are an all-occasion greeting card if you have a surplus like president clinton left president bush, and you were a part of that. we have to cut taxes then. if we have a recession threat, we have to cut taxes. they have to cut taxes all the time because it's for their crowd. isn't that it? >> this is an important point. it's not just cutting taxes. it's cutting taxes on the rich. you know, if it just were simply a matter of cutting taxes, i don't think democrats would be opposed to cutting taxes for average working people. in fact they have advanced many proposals. no, what the republicans

continue to say is you must reduce taxes on the rich. the fact of the matter is that before the mid 1970s, we in this country, between the end of world war ii and the middle of the 1970s, it was -- we never had a marginal tax rate on the highest income people below 70%. yesterday the economy grew in those years faster than it has grown since. there's no basis -- there's no trickle down from trickle-down economics. look what's happened to wages. ever since bush actually reduced taxes on the wealthy, the median wage has actually decline. we haven't seen anything like that in this country in a so-called recovery. >> how come in the '30s when we suffered a far worse economic decline the rich were embarrassed? people were jumping out of buildings. it was horrendous. there was a real sense of shame, shame by the very rich. this time around the response by the really better off people is give us more, we blew it, we screwed it up, we destroyed our markets, we killed wall street,

we said we're too big to fail, now give us more. the reaction is totally different. there's no shame anymore about wealth abused. >> i don't think there is any shame. partly, chris, i think it's because that shock to the american economy in 1929, 1930, '31, '32 was so deep and so widespread. one of four americans was unemployed. but you had also a sense that the entire country was directly threatened. now, although the shock is very, very high, and the economy is not growing by any appreciable amount, people do sense that somehow things are going to get a bit better, the economy is not as threatened, and we're not all in the same boat. i think that's the critical issue. we're no longer in the same boat. after world war ii there was enough social cohesion at the top, ceos, people on wall street, it was just unseemly to take huge salaries. that's gone.

>> i'm leaning more to you and crewingman. he is a bet further left. i lean more and more to the argument now, we need to create jobs. the government has to stop talking about, public service jobs, public works jobs, there are whole number of jobs in the e.d.a. and public works that are available to start. bridges. i drive over roads in washington that are terrible. i see bridges that are rickety. we know about this. why don't they had fix them? stuff that's real, now, to do. >> we're going to have to. i think the president, if he wants to be reelected, he's going to have to get behind a real jobs bill. >> me too. >> but it's got to be, you know, a renewed wpa, a civilian conservation corps, exempting the first $20,000 of income from payroll taxes. there are a lot of things that can and should be done and have to be done to put americans back to work. >> we have to go through every one of these congressman,

starting with boehner, and find out how many bridges are beloy safety code. with school bugses busses going over them. let's go through the roads in lousy shape, the sewer systems, in their own districts, 9 democrats should be targeting this stuff and say you've got nothing to defend, buddy, we need the work done. thank you, robert reich. that's mild thought, anyway. you're the experts. thanks for coming on from out there in berkeley. up next, you can turn out the lights on a dim idea. they want to bring out the old light bulbs that wear out in about three weeks. they don't like these new kind that don't burn out. what is the matter with these people, they reggy kilowatts on the right? that's "hardball" on msnbc. [ male announcer ] a moment that starts off ordinary

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he's the congressman who apologized for bp executives for the president's what he called shakedown as oil was still spilling into the gulf. he wants to repeal a law that requires light bulbs to be less incandescent. he vowed to keep up the fight, quote. we can put it on an appropriations bill, i can try to go to smm democrats who didn't vote and figure out a way to get them to consider voting for it in a different format. all this to protect light bulbs. on average they waste 90% of the energy they give off. remember the old-time light bulbs that went out in a couple days? what a clear-cut waste of time. this is the new fight we used to have -- remember over fluoridation of water? that was a communist way of water pf. and a local enter view

talking about illeap immigration. >> as your congressman on the house floor i'll do anything short of shooting them, anything that is lawful, it needs to be done, because illegal aliens need to quit taking jobs from american citizens. >> you never know what to expect, anything short of shooting them. what's with these people? republicans, the head of the hispanic caucus, charles gonzalez called on congressman brooks to simply apologize and recognize -- is this obvious -- that words have consequence. you don't talk about shooting people. up next the rupert murdoch scandal hits home. several are calling for an investigation to see if news corp broke any laws, going into homes and phone numbers of people who are 9/11 victims? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

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rupert murdoch does own an enormous amount of your media with the fox news and some of your newspapers, and, um, i think people need to ask themselves, you know, who is this man who owns such a large part of our media? >> well, that's hugh grant. back to "hardball." british actor hugh grant, who said he was a victim himself of the phone-hacking scanned add.

today murdoch faced his biggest blow so far. it withdrew the long-planned bid to take over britain's largest satellite broadcaster. this is big bad for him. back stateside senators jay rockefeller barba boxer and peter king have called in for investigations into whether murdoch broke u.s. laws. joins us is jay -- and gabriel sherman entitled "fox news made a circus" and boy does he regret it now. gabrielle, i think you've written about me at different times, so let's talk about the journalism -- no harm done, i don't think, there. but let me ask the question. the investigation that's going on, peter king is a red-hot going after kind of guy, especially new york stuff involving the victims of 9/11. if it can be determined that murdoch's people did here what

they did there, gone in and hacked into people's e-mail, people's telephone lines to find out information about the victims of 9/11, how hot is that? >> gosh, chris, i mean, that is the, you know, that is the big elephant in the room, but i think it's important to point out that there's no evidence thus far that any of that hacking activity has occurred stateside. >> why would it not happen over here? it happened in great britain. >> obviously the folks in washington are going to try to find out, but it's important to point out that we have no evidence that it happened here. it's a relevant question to be asking. >> the whole question of his empire, i was always fascinated by his speed. this guy's american citizenship. we argue about immigration all the time in this country. i know people have become americans. this guy did it in about 15 minutes. who helped him? how does he get these licenses that you can only get if you're

an american citizen? >> it was very unusual circumstances. it was in 1985, when he wanted to buy a whole host of television stations. >> so presto. >> that's what he announced. he actually got the regulatory approval from the fcc prior to iron go ahead a citizenship. >> did he become a citizen like somebody who wants a job or did she discover some love the america? >> he had been living here for many years, then he wanted to buy these television stations. the only way he was going to do it was to become a citizen. >> who are his agents, as he operates in this country. he seems to break all the rules, how does he do that? how did he get his clout in this country in government? >> obviously, chris, the murdoch empire has been built largely in part on its close relationships

with people in power. now, whether it's conservatives here in the united states or -- >> he hires most of them. >> or in britain, he's used his media properties, whether it's the harper collins book imprint by giving lucrative deals. newt gingrich was giving more than $4 million to write a harper. >> let's go to something more obvious. he's hired rudy julianist, gingrich to work at the station, governor palin, he has huckabee working for him now, santorum. he has a better stable han the rnc of the republican big shots. they're on his payroll. or have been and will be again. s that's a lot of clout, isn't it? >> i think what the scandal has shown is murdoch uses his virtuous cycle of developing relationships that then end up paying business dividends. when legislation is passed

that's favorable to news corp. obviously the relevant questions are being asked, and it's too early to know ultimately where the scandal is going to go, but obviously the biggest existential crisis to face news corp in probably its history. >> you know, judd, what i'm impressed by, david cameron -- i don't have strong views -- let's see if it works, but he broke with this guide the other day and said we're going after this guy, that was quite a break. >> i think that's a huge break in his influence, because as influential as he is in the united states, and you ticked through some of the politicians >> he's hired them. >> he is a monster in the uk. to lose all his support, such that this make acquisition of bskyb which he had been working on for years, he totally this to abandon it, and then in the "wall street journal" ironically enough today, he's considering getting rid of all of his uk

newspapers just to try to stop this contamination of his empire. it really shows he's on the ropes, i think. senator rockefeller and barbara boxer have asked attorney general eric holder and s.e.c. chairman shapiro into an investigation whether news corp broke any u.s. laws. interesting you have a law that you can't bribe overseas. the reported allegations are very serious. that's the quote out of them. it indicates potential thousands of victims in a pattern of illegal activity. it's important to ensure that no laws were broken or citizens victimized. robert mueller was asked to investigate whether news of the world obtained illegally reports of the 9/11 victims. i said that. let me go to gabriel. we have rules. i'm not saying we're cleaner all the time, but we have certain rules, you're not allowed to bribe foreign officials in this country, even if you're an american multinational.

isn't that interesting that might be a way to get at this guy, by people who think he's too powerful? your thoughts. >> obviously they're going to investigate. obviously if there was criminal activity, that will be explored. i think the interesting point is right now the most vulnerable member of the murdoch empire seems to be his son james murdoch, who ran news international as the head -- as the head of the uk properties, and he was the -- directly involved with some of thinks out-of-court settlement with early hacking victims. that raises the question, what did he know? and when did he know it. if you can establish that a family member had direct nothing or pampl knowledge, then it extends up to rupert. and then did he personally know about some of these behavior, and the scandal engulfs the whole family. >> let's see how this develops. this is an amazing story. thank you for joins us, gabriel and judd.

up next the 2012 race, we go back to sheer politics. michele bachmann is soaring in the race, in a new national poll. she's moving on up. she may go a lot higher before she stops. when you see the numbers, the non-candidates palin and rick perry are getting, she has a virgin forest she could be conquering. all of that is action on the right, which means mitt romney not gaining may be the one quarter of the republican party, three quarters which is to his right. this is "hardball," only on msnbc.

well, philadelphia lost a really good politician today with the death of mike stack. he was a longtime ward leader in northeast philadelphia where i grew up, a classic irish-american pol, a novelist and real stalwart for the party up there. politics ran in this guy's blood. his father was a two-term u.s. congressman, his son is a state nor in pennsylvania right now. we'll be right back. what a great guy. i

welcome back to "hardball." the excitement is all on stage right on the gop presidential field. a new poll shows tea party favorites are collectively running well ahead of mitt romney. if they line up behind one candidate, which probably will happen, like michele bachmann, like out mitt. let me both of you join me in this. we love quinnipiac. just 25% of republicans are for the so-called front-runner mitt romney, but the numbers that really tell us something are the other numbers.

bachmann is at 14%, palin at 12%, and rick perry is at 10%. these 36% potentially, joan, jump in here. it seems to me, i don't think the former governor from alaska is running for president. she would have shown something by now. i have no idea whether rick perry is running or not, but if he's not, looks like there's a lot of virgin timber out there for bachmann to chop down and take away from mr. romney who's still vaguely over there on the "moderate" side. >> right, we talked about there being two republican primaries right now, chris. there's the kind of moderate gop establishment primary and mitt romney, i think has won that. people like john huntsman, he's not taking off. on the other side, right, you have the tea party primary and right now palin is probably not running, but i look at these numbers and i think palin has to look at them, she's a narcissist and think maybe i can do this. why am i going to let this pale

substitute, michele bachmann, take this territory. >> maybe you think she is possibly running and it won't all go to bachmann. what did you make of the newsweek cover on palin? do you think that indicated she is still in the running or likes the celebrity. what does it tell you, it's a strong picture of her. >> right, she likes the celebrity, she may not give it up. narcissist is a strong word, but she's into herself, likes herself, she has high self esteem. i think she could look at this set of numbers and think why am i not in there. rick perry, the same thing. i could flip it around on you and say mitt romney is looking pretty at this base right now, you could have two or three people that end up fighting each other and splitting the vote. i don't know. >> back to my initial premise which may have been shattered already, maybe rick perry running too. i don't know him like i do other politicians. what do you think, john.

if you look at these numbers, rome romney 25%, tea party candidates adds up to a hell of a lot more than 25%. >> shows a unsettled field and does show if you have multiple candidates on the right, that could represent an opportunity for romney to win like mccain did four years ago. he never got to 50%, but he didn't have to. the key here, i think, is what does rick perry do? he could step in here. >> in or out? >> you talk to folks, chris, across the board, they all think he's running in the party establishment. his folks though, say, not a done deal yet and he's in no rush. here's the thing about perry, he could be the hybrid candidate, the tea party crowd could rally around him. not like bachmann and romney who draw from distinct pools, he could draw from both pools.

i don't see another candidate that has that kind of potential. >> what do you think, joan. i know you're on the progressive side of things, but when you look across the aisle and look at perry, is he for real? i have not delved into what he is as a figure and character yet. >> he has a lot of baggage, chris. i agree with jonathan, he can look like a hybrid candidate, i think that's an interesting strategy, but when push comes to shove in a campaign, he's not a hybrid candidate, he's a far right candidate. he could be a george bush candidate. >> bush doesn't like him apparently. >> i know, but he has the experience as ten years as governor, but he's been close to the confederate groups. >> he's a marjo character. he's got the evangelical thing. doesn't work for me, but works with some. how can you take serious a guy

running for president of the united states talking about secession from the union? >> well, because there's -- >> call me old-fashioned, i keep thinking the union is good. thank you. i think it's over. >> governor for ten years of one of the biggest states in the country. that alone will make him appealing for some party. >> when we return, mitch mcconnell looks like he wants to save this republic right now from financial catastrophe. esurance instantly compares our car insurance rates with other top companies. with an esurance quote, you know you're getting a great deal. you can thank our tech team for that. sure, i'll let them know. bye-bye. aha! anything you want to share? with the tech team? oh, i'm dating that girl in accounting. seriously? yeah, we're pretty serious. [ female announcer ] know if you're getting a great deal. see for yourself at esurance.

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let me finish tonight with a salute to a leader. it took someone to break this crazed strangle hold on america's economy, someone to say it's time to move on. well, senator mitch mcconnell did it. he offered up a basic proposal, separate the fight we're having over spending and taxation, a fight that will be settled in next year's election to a fight over if we'll let the debt ceiling rise. when i worked in politics, i learned political leaders in politics think different from journalists. journalists think of the day's story, but political leaders think on two horizons, one is next week, the other is next election. senator mcconnell is thinking about what if congress doesn't handle the debt ceiling next

week, what that failure will mean to the next election. this is right and it is true, failure to act on the debt ceiling will create a horror for our country, a horror we have not quite seen before. someday we'll find ourselves like greece, portugal, someday we'll be one of those countries that the strong world looks down on really, will become objects of pity. not for what was done for us on 9/11, but for the pathetic sight of what we've done with ourselves. put me down with senator mcconnell and senator reed and those who care most about the country than about their parties than about themselves. i hope that's the order in which leaders make decisions. i hope that's the way people trusted to run our country approach their days, especially days like now, days of reckoning. that's "hardball" for now, thanks for being with us, "the last word with lawrence o'donnell" starts right now.